Episode 87: How Leaders Make Better Decisions Under Pressure

Episode Summary

Burnout isn’t just about being tired—it’s about misalignment, decision fatigue, and losing connection to what actually drives you. In this episode, Dr. Tricia Vinatieri, clinical psychologist and Chief Wellbeing Officer, breaks down how leaders can recognize early burnout signs and regain control before it impacts their decisions, teams, and performance.

With nearly two decades of experience working with trauma and organizational wellbeing, she shares how burnout affects decision-making, why leaders default to “easy” choices under pressure, and how values-based leadership becomes the anchor in high-stress environments. This conversation challenges the myth that burnout is a personal weakness and reframes it as a systemic and leadership issue.

If you're navigating stress, pressure, or leadership fatigue, this episode gives you a practical path back to clarity, alignment, and effective leadership.

Key Takeaways

• Spot Burnout Early
  Cynicism, constant fatigue, and feeling ineffective are not random—they’re signals.
• Decision Fatigue Is Real
  Burnout doesn’t just drain energy—it lowers your ability to think clearly and choose wisely.
• Values Drive Better Decisions
  Leaders who operate from a clear mission and core values reduce stress and make stronger calls.
• Burnout Isn’t a Grit Problem
  High performers burn out too—it’s often the system, not the individual.
• Human-Centered Leadership Wins
  People don’t need perfect leaders—they need leaders who see them.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Welcome to the Luxe of Alexandra. We're highly stuck for me. I'm going to find all energy leadership coach. I'll go to the end of the window. And how should we make a puppet? Subscribe now and join me on YouTube at Swan Coaching. So let's get your red set.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

We go big, gonna be gonna be gonna be gonna be gonna be gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

I'm excited to have you here. The first question I typically ask is where are you checking in from?

SPEAKER_00 1:19

I am joining you from the Pacific Northwest, just outside of Portland.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Portland. Okay, how's the weather up there down, Ace?

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Rainy and wet, which is kind of course.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Are you born and raised in that area?

SPEAKER_00 1:31

I'm actually from Napa, California.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Tell us who you are, what you do, and the type of value that you bring.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Sure. So I'm a clinical psychologist by training. Much of my work has been around treating PTSD in veterans who've experienced traumas in their life. And I've been doing that for 18 years. And most recently, in the last several years, I shifted to a new position called a chief well-being officer. And in that role, I help leaders address burnout in their frontline staff, in themselves, in the organization, through effective leadership and by addressing things within the organization that really drive burnout. And part of that is helping them understand how best to connect with their frontline staff and really get to the heart of what's driving their burnout. And the value I bring is really skills around how leaders can not only have those conversations with their staff and really understand their organizational culture and ways in which it can be shifted to promote professional thriving, but also how to recognize burnout in oneself and what to do about it.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

I really do believe that. And it depends on how are you showing up in this environment where so much is changing, things are moving so fast, right? And we're in these decisions where we're conflicted and we have to make these decisions on the fly. And it naturally creates burnout. So help me understand working with leaders. What's the first approach that you take to helping a leader self-regulate around burnout?

SPEAKER_00 3:20

I think the first thing that I encourage people to do is do a self-assessment of where they're at. And there are very specific symptoms of burnout that are key indicators that it's happening, like feeling like you're very, you've become very cynical and maybe a little bit callous towards other people you work with. There's also just this kind of persistent exhaustion and fatigue that doesn't seem to get better when you take a week off or over the weekend, you come back on Monday and you're like, I am not feeling refreshed. And the third is when you start to feel like you're not really making an impact in the work you're doing. Like you may question yourself like, Am I really effective? Am I really making change in my organization? Am I making positive impacts in the lives of my staff? And so if people are answering yes to some of those, it's possible that they have burnout. And burnout can really exist on a scale in terms of intensity, all the way from I'm a little burnt out, all the way to I am crispy. There is no more gas in the tank. And so I encourage leaders to do an assessment for themselves where they're at. And some other questions they may consider are do I feel like the good days outnumber the bad days? As leaders, we are all going to have days where we're like, I felt really good about that. I feel not everything went perfectly, but at the end of the day, I feel accomplished. And then there are going to be days where we're ruminating on how the day went and maybe an argument with someone, or we were hoping for something to be achieved and it didn't. So if you feel like you have more bad days than good days, and you really feel like you're feeling more and more hardened and disengaged from your work, you're probably in that space of burnout. So that's really the first thing is knowing for yourself where you're at.

Decision Fatigue And Better Choices

SPEAKER_02 5:06

You've been doing this for a long time. And then the name of this podcast is Let's Think About It. So I like to try to take a deeper dive, right? So you've seen it all when it comes to leaders trying to lead self through burnout. From your experience, what's the differentiator between someone making decisions who are experiencing burnout versus someone who is naturally in a great state of mind in making decisions? What's the differentiator there?

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Yeah, when we're burnt out, we don't necessarily have the cognitive capacity or kind of the mental bandwidth to make good decisions. And one of the things that actually leads to burnout is what we call decision fatigue. And we know this happens often with leaders where every day they have to make decisions and they oftentimes have to consider many different factors, like how is this going to impact my staff? Is this the kind of politically correct thing to do in my organization? Is this going to make my leaders happy? Is this in line with the culture of the organization? So decision fatigue is a real thing. And that's also something that I really encourage both leaders at all levels and also staff to consider when they're asking things of others, like, how can I make this an easier process for the person that I'm asking to make a decision? So when we're burnt out, again, we may make decisions based on biases, things that we're like, that seems the right thing to do without really thinking through it. We may make decisions based on what's easiest in that moment, what's going to be the path of least resistance. And what I've noticed with people that may be in a place where they're stressed, as many leaders are, but not burnt out, they're making decisions based on their values. So one of the other things I really recommend for any leader, including an individual that's a frontline staff, who's maybe in this place of I want to be someone who focuses on leading self, knowing that one day I may want to become a leader, like we're all leaders at every level, in my opinion, but is to have a professional mission statement. And when you have that, when you know what your professional goals are, your professional values are, then decisions will then become a little less difficult because you have this guiding North Star. So it's not like you feel like you're arbitrarily making decisions or choosing the options in a way that just seems like you have to, like you said, make decisions on the fly. If you have that guiding star of your professional mission statement and your values, you're asking what's in line with my values and what's not. And that usually takes the guest work out of it. And that doesn't mean sometimes our values don't conflict with each other. And we have to do a little more thought around what value is trumping the other value in this situation, but it takes a lot of the guesswork and a lot of that kind of cognitive processing of thinking about what decision to make and also helps avoid burnout when you're like, no, I know that I'm someone who values honesty or I value integrity or I value human-centered leadership. And that's going to help me make a decision versus each time a decision comes up, I don't have that framework to use.

Early Burnout Signals And Coping

SPEAKER_02 8:28

I love that. And you're singing music to my ears because that's what I teach is by helping leaders discover their core values. Just taking a step back, right? I do an activity and a workshop where I teach leaders how to discover their core values. And with those core values, I take it a little bit of a layer deeper because when we're triggered at work, whatever that trigger might be, right, maybe that's the signal that your values are off in that moment, right? And when your values are off in that moment, you have the ability to pause, to question what's off, and then get back in alignment and then making a decision from when you realigned and you just naturally feel better. And that's something that I teach. And from there, and from teaching this, I developed the swag framework, self-awareness, why power, aligned action, and grit. It ties to your values because the why power, that's values. That's values, right? And when you're disconnected from your values, that inner critic can get really loud and distracting. And it can sound like a voice of reasoning in certain moments because your values are off. So when you're off, that voice sounds real, it sounds logical to listen to, and then often more than that, it's flogged. It's flawed, and you make a wrong decision because you're burnt out. And so here's another question for you though what are some indicators that people can pick up early on that can help them identify that burnout is starting to creep in.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

One of the first things people notice is again that fatigue, that tiredness. I think people often find when they're burnt out, their capacity for empathy and compassion goes down. So they may find that they're more irritable, they're shorter with people. And it's not just in the workplace context, but in their home life too, where they may get home from a long day and they're just not in a great mood. And I will share personally, when I was burnt out as a manager during COVID, people would say to me pretty frequently, You just seem so unhappy. You just seem almost bitter all the time. And I remember my sister telling me I visited her in Maui, and she was like, Here you are in paradise. You're with your two little nieces who you adore, you're on vacation, and you've got this little gray cloud following you around. And that was really good feedback for me that burnout was very severe in my life at that time. So it's that irritability. Also, people may notice that the excitement they get about the things that they used to enjoy at work has been deadened a little bit or is decreased. It's not as vivid. And so there's this lack of, or maybe this loss of excitement about their work they're doing. And we all have things in our jobs that we don't like doing. I'm not talking about those, but the things that really get us excited, people start to find like it's just not filling my cup anymore. So those are some of those indicators that people may start to notice when they're starting to feel burnt out, or on a more team-based level, you might see more incivility, more infighting, more gossiping, where people are just trying to survive and maybe coping in ways that are not the most helpful. I think of a another example of people are like, yeah, I get to Friday and the only energy I have is to sit on the couch and binge watch Netflix all weekend. And that's not how I used to be. Like I, but that's what I feel like I have the energy to do. So that maybe unhealthy coping can look like many different things when it comes to burnout.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

I think also the inner battle with self that we often carry creates burnout too. Because let's say, for example, you're a new supervisor or new leader in a new role at a new organization. You're showing up like you got to prove your worth, right? You don't want to mess up. So you're gonna take on everything. And when things are asked of you that's out of your bandwidth in the moment, you're still gonna say yes because you're trying to prove your worth, that you know, you're reliable, you can do the job. So you're gonna take on, you're gonna take on, you're gonna take on. Then in those moments, it's hard to delegate when there's no trust because you don't want the opportunity for them to screw up and it reflects back on you. So you're thinking in your mind, it's easier to just do it myself. As you're approaching all of these different dynamics that I just described in your head, that creates burnout within itself. In a new job, when you're supposed to be excited. What are your thoughts about that?

Control And Delegation In New Roles

Burnout Is Systemic Not Personal Failure

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Completely agree that we put this expectation on ourselves that we're going to do it all and we're going to do it perfectly. And I, and there's this need to control everything because you want to demonstrate I'm effective in this job, I'm a good leader. And so there may be where we're taking on things we shouldn't versus delegating. And I think you hit it right on the head that what we're depriving ourselves of is the opportunity to build trust with our staff. Not only can we trust our staff to do things they've been hired to do and trust that if something is delegated, they'll do it, but also their trust in us. If I tell you no, I'll just do it, I'm sending the message that's I don't trust you to do it, but that's also going to impact your ability to trust me as a leader. So I completely agree. And I think with burnout, there's this added layer that can exacerbate burnout and actually accelerate it, which is historically until recently, we've treated burnout as what it is, which is this something we experience at an individual level, but we've talked about it as if you just slept well, if you just exercised, if you just ate well, if you just manage the stress better, you wouldn't be burnt out. So there's this message of you're burnt out because you can't handle it. You don't have grit, you don't have resilience. When in fact, oftentimes what drives burnout are things that are happening externally around you or things within your organization or wherever you work that's really driving that burnout. And I think that inner voice of if you were stronger, you wouldn't be burnt out. If you had resilience, you wouldn't be burnt out. When in fact, we know that many resilient people, many people who have grit, who have fortitude, get burnt out because it's the system that they're trying so hard to tolerate that's eating away at their humanity and their mental and physical well-being.

SPEAKER_02 15:03

How does one learn to trust themselves when they experience these early indicators that burnout is seeping in or I'm leaking energy? How does one learn to trust themselves to say it's okay to take a step back, reset, and then re-engage? How do you teach leaders to do that?

Trust Yourself And Drop The Double Standard

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Yeah, it's a great question. And it takes vulnerability for people to be in that space to reflect. Like, am I at a place where I need to step back? One thing I've noticed has been helpful is to ask leaders what would you tell your staff member if they came to you and they told you they were having the same thoughts? Like, I'm feeling exhausted, but I feel like I need to keep pushing forward. I think many people that are good leaders would say, Let's talk about how we can help you step back, take some things off your plate. How can we help encourage self-compassion that you're doing so much and you can't do it all? There's only so much you can do. So I think sometimes when people can step out of themselves and say, Do I have this double standard? Am I being really hard on myself, but I wouldn't be hard on somebody else? Or if a friend or a colleague came to you and said, I'm just exhausted, I'm feeling like I'm getting pretty crispy, I'm trying to do it all. We'd probably tell our good friend, you need to step back a little bit. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's, I think it's so important for us to recognize that we live in a society that demands a lot of us. And many of us work in workplaces that will just unintentionally many times just keep and keep taking from us. So if we keep completing what's given to us, we're telling the system, give us more, we can take it. But we're we all have a point at which it's too much. So that's what I would recommend is thinking about what would I say to a colleague or frontline staff who comes to me and they're sharing what they're experiencing? What would I say and how is that different than what I am telling myself? And how do I respond to that double standard?

SPEAKER_02 17:04

I also think it's important to be able to differentiate between reacting and responding. I think we're in this environment that we have to react. We have to make a decision right now. And a lot of times when we're in that reacting mode, it's all emotional driven because you're burnt out, you're tired, and I gotta make a decision right now. It's hard to take that step back. I remember having a conversation with a particular client who was new to an organization. They were really frustrated about the way leadership was managing. What we determined was is there a misalignment? This person identified that, yeah, there is misalignment, but they carry guilt for even thinking about looking for another job because they just started that job. And I think we put that other layer of pressure on us. If there is currently misalignment right now in my role, I gotta go find another job so that I can be in alignment. And I said, let's take a step back and let's look at the big picture. What intentions can you start to create today that can start to move you into alignment of what you need, whether it's with your current place of employment or if it means moving on to a different place? But what action can you take today that starts to move you toward the alignment of what you need right now? And I think those are the important conversations that we don't think about when we're starting to experience burnout and leaking when I say energy. We don't have that conversation with ourselves. We don't ask ourselves, what's off right now? Why do I feel like so drained? What's the trigger that's creating this draining feeling every day for the past couple of weeks? What's the denominator for me? And I think that's the piece that we often miss as leaders in these organizations. What are your thoughts about that?

Values Misalignment And Practical Alignment Steps

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Absolutely. I first want to say I think guilt and shame are such powerful emotions. They in themselves can leak energy from us, but they really can sometimes become the decision makers in that moment. As you were saying, like our emotions can guide our decision making, and that can be problematic for various reasons. Like we should be listening to our emotions, but less I'm going to react on my emotions and more what are my emotions telling me. And I love how you said it's about not only that self-reflection around where's that misalignment, but then it's added with that intention of, and what actions can I take? I love that. And I think those are really important questions leaders should be asking themselves around that alignment piece. And that is, yes, spot on, that is a huge driver of burnout when people are like, these are my values and they don't align with what I'm doing. And there's no shame in that. Honestly, organizations want you to be aligned. Yeah.

How The Guest Became A Well Being Leader

SPEAKER_02 19:53

It all circles back to the start of this conversation and how do you regulate burnout? It's like understanding what your values are because those values, when they're misaligned, you're more susceptible to be influenced by other distractions, which get you off of your game, which potentially causes burnout. But I I didn't have an opportunity to ask you this, but how did you get into this line of work? What projected you here to doing this type of work?

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Yeah, misalignment of values. I was in a role where I was managing a team of PTSD therapists. It was during COVID, which was stressful for everyone, and especially for folks in healthcare. And I just felt at the end of every day, just unfulfilled, crabby. And I started to notice that I was resenting the people I worked with who there was no valid reason to resent them. I had an amazing staff. They were all excellent humans, excellent therapists. But I would notice when they would come to me to ask a question, a simple question, I would be like, oh, what do you want? And it was just, I stepped back and I was like, wow, I came into clinical psychology because I want to help people, because I'm an empathic person, because I feel compassion for people sometimes a little too much. And now I'm in this place where I feel callous. So for me, I was like, this is a values misalignment. And so I reached out to a mentor and I let him know that I was experiencing burnout, my staff was experiencing burnout, and if he had any recommendations around resources or things that we could do to kind of write the ship in that respect. And then I also let him know that I was deeply unhappy in my job, not because of my team and not necessarily because the work, but a lot of what was happening in my organization is more was being demanded of managers and staff. And there were less and less opportunities for me to support staff and their professional growth. So people would say, I want to go to this conference, I want to get this certification. And the amount of times I got no was astounding. So I felt like I the reason. And I went into becoming a leader was to help promote the growth in others. And I couldn't even do that. So I told him all this. And he said, I can definitely give you resources. But there's this newer job called chief well-being officer. It was about 10 years old at that point. And he said, and it focuses on helping address burnout in the organization. So that job came open and I applied for it. And I've loved it ever since. And then within the last year, I created a consulting business where I help leaders and other organizations learn some of the strategies and skills to address burnout in their own organization because burnout is truly an epidemic in this country right now and globally, sadly. So that's how I got to here doing this work, which I love and have not felt burnt out a single day in this role because I love it so much. Very aligned with my values.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

What was the most valuable lesson learned since you've joined this organization? You would, I'm sure you've learned so much. But what how can you pinpoint one big lesson learned for you that really helped the shift?

SPEAKER_00 23:13

I would say the most important thing that I've seen in working with leaders is that staff just want a leader who sees them as a person. You can disagree with your boss on decisions that are being made. You can disagree with how things are being done. But if when you show up to work, if you feel like your supervisor, your boss, your manager, whoever it is, sees you as a person and sees your value as a human, the rest becomes so much easier. So much easier when things are out delegated, when there's accountability that comes up. So that's the thing. And I think that also is a reminder for us as leaders that having that human-centered lens is so important. And I think that may not be something that every person has within their capacity, but it can be developed. We really have to move away from some older models of leadership and really find value in human-centered leadership because it truly like the evidence is there. But even in my day-in-and-day work, the employees that feel like their manager is truly invested and who they are as a human, those are the people that are thriving, regardless of all the challenges they're experiencing in their workplace.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

I agree with you 1000% because employees, they already know we don't have a budget to hire people. We can't change the regulations, we can't change the demands that senior management is setting. They just want to be heard. They just want to be acknowledged. They want to be validated as leaders. That's what we should naturally be doing anyway, right? Acknowledging, validating the feelings and what their employees are going through and just see them for who they are. I think that's what employees just naturally want. Because at the end of the day, they know you can't create another position. When you work for an organization, and the organization has already said we don't have a budget to hire more people. But yet the employee will continue to complain. They're complaining just because they want to feel like they're heard. And then if you give them the space to validate what you're hearing and the understanding, being empathetic to where they are and seeing it from their lens, that's the shift. And like you said, they will move forward. But then having that feeling that my supervisor, my boss, my chain of command supports what I'm trying to do, and they understand how difficult it is in my seat, and they understand that, and they're willing to try to support the best of their ability. I know we don't have a budget. I'm going to continue to keep moving forward to help this organization because they listen to me. I've been heard. They feel me. And I think that's key. And that's why the work that you do is so important. And I thank you for doing this work. How can people find you?

SPEAKER_00 26:03

So I'm on LinkedIn. I'm the only Dr. Trisha Vinateri. There is on LinkedIn. You can also find me at cliniciancareconsulting.com. Again, that's cliniciancareconsulting.com, where there is a link to my LinkedIn. And yeah, those are the best ways to find me.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

Okay. Any lasting thoughts that you would like to share with our audience today?

SPEAKER_00 26:25

I just a recommendation that we all try very hard to remember that we're all humans on this planet with our own struggles and successes and failures and hurts and joys. And we're all just trying to do the best we can. And I think when we remember that about ourselves and others, things just are so much easier. We have more empathy. We give grace, we give the benefit of the doubt, we get along with each other better. That's my final golden pearl to share with people.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

I really do appreciate your presence being on the show. I also would like to add and get your swag back, self-awareness, why power, aligned action, and grit. Because when you're feeling guilt, trigger, anger, burnout, all of that, your swag is off. And to get your swag back on, lean in and understanding your why, your values, your purpose. And when you can understand that, it puts you in aligned action. And with that aligned action, you have more self-awareness and then you're have grit in order to continue to move forward and not give up on yourself. With that being said, I appreciate you, Trisha. I really do. This was a wonderful conversation. Thank you for dropping your wisdom and knowledge today.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

That's another rep in the inner arena. You didn't just listen, you leveled up your swag. Self-awareness, why power, aligned action, and grit. If this hit home, share it, subscribe to the Let's Think About It podcast, and lock in with me on YouTube at Swag Coaching. Until next time, stay aware, lead with your why, act in alignment, and keep your grid strong.