Let's Think About It Podcast

Episode 48: Fearless Forward

• Morice Mabry • Season 2 • Episode 48

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What propels us forward when fears and limiting beliefs threaten to hold us back? Zoe Thompson's journey from an 18-year-old civilian in a police station to a senior leader managing officers provides a masterclass in determination and proving doubters wrong.

Growing up with a father whose mantra was "the bigger they come, the harder they fall," Zoe developed an unstoppable drive that served her well when facing triple bias as young, female, and a civilian in leadership. Her philosophy? "If you tell me I can't do it, you can then watch me do it." This mindset became her superpower in navigating challenges throughout her 20-year policing career.

Our conversation delves into the psychology of fear and how it functions as a distraction from our values. When we're afraid – whether of public speaking or taking on new challenges – our values temporarily recede. But as Zoe explains, "The anticipation anxiety is very real, and the more you stand on the sidelines, the bigger it gets." The solution? Step into action, and watch your values rise as the fear diminishes.

Today, Zoe coaches ambitious professionals who are already successful but recognize that "what got you here won't get you there." Using frameworks like PIPS (Plan, Intention, identity, Performance, Structure) and the KSA bridge (Knowledge, Skills, Action), she helps clients identify what's truly holding them back from their next summit. Her proudest successes? Helping working parents achieve professional excellence without sacrificing family time.

Whether you're facing fear in leadership, career transitions, or personal growth, this episode offers practical wisdom on moving forward with purpose. As Zoe reminds us, "Take the step, take action, and give yourself space to bounce it around and work it through once you're in it, but don't do that from the sidelines."

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the let's Think About it podcast, where we embark on a journey of thoughtfulness and personal growth. I'm your host, coach Mo, and I'm here to guide you through thought-promoting discussions that will inspire you to unlock your full potential. In each episode, we'll explore a wide range of topics, from self-discovery and mindfulness to goal-setting and achieving success. Together, we'll challenge conventional thinking and dive deep into the realms of possibility. Whether you're looking to find clarity in your personal or professional life, or seeking strategies to overcome obstacles, this podcast is your go-to source for insightful conversations and practical advice. So find a comfortable spot, chill and let's embark on this journey of self-improvement together. Remember, the power of transformation lies within you, and together we'll uncover the tools and insights you need to make it happen. So let's dive in. Welcome to another episode of the let's Think About it podcast. I'm your host, coach Mo, and I'm here with another amazing guest. Her name is Zoe Thompson.

Speaker 2:

Zoe what's up? Hey, how are you doing?

Speaker 1:

Good to be here. I'm awesome. I'm happy that you're here. What part of the world are you checking in from?

Speaker 2:

I am in Bristol, which is in the southwest of England, so between London and Wales.

Speaker 1:

Tell me something that you love about the UK and the area you live in.

Speaker 2:

Oh, what's to love about the UK? It's not the weather, never the weather. We're never happy with the weather. I love Bristol. Bristol has a little bit of everything. It's a really vibrant city. It's really mixed. We've got a great reputation for music and culture and arts. There is always something going on here. I'm born here, always lived here, and whilst I love to travel, it's always good to come back to home here too, so it's a good place to be.

Speaker 1:

That's great and we're happy to have you here today. Thank you, tell us who you are, what you do and the value that you bring.

Speaker 2:

Great first question. Okay, let's try and answer this as succinctly as possible. Who am I? What do I do? I am a coach and a trainer. I work with people who are looking to be successful in life, in leadership, in business, and I help them with strategies, mindset, confidence across all of those areas. A lot of the people that I work with they're already halfway up the mountain, so they've already achieved lots. They're already successful people and they've got their eyes on the summit. But they know that what got them to where they are is not going to get them to where they want to go next. So, in the words of Marshall Goldsmith, what got you here won't get you there. They know that they perhaps need to look at mindset. They know they need some extra tools in the toolbox to get to where they're going.

Speaker 1:

So, whether it's life, leadership or business, those are the level I do, so take us through the journey of how you got to where you are and how you gained this experience of helping people.

Speaker 2:

So my career first started at 18. So I did my A-levels here and then there was lots of conversations about going to university, or college as you call it and I didn't want to go to university. So my parents were both police officers. My mum's dad was also a police officer. So I knew from a really early age that was what I wanted to do. So whilst my school were quite keen for me to look at university as an option, I knew that wasn't the road that I wanted to go down.

Speaker 2:

So I joined the police as a civilian at 18, straight out of school. I thought I knew everything, as you do at 18. Worked in the front desk of a police station so very entry level role and learned very quickly that I knew nothing about the world at 18 and the world of policing and the world as it actually is. My eyes were opened pretty wide very quickly but I absolutely loved it, really loved it, loved the work, loved the people. And then from there the goal was always to be a police officer. That was always the goal to join as a civilian and then apply to be a police officer when recruitment opened.

Speaker 2:

Recruitment did open and I didn't get through. So I made the decision to sit it out, wait for recruitment to open again. But then an opportunity came up for a supervisor role, so I went for it and got it and never really looked back after that. My career took off as a civilian in leadership. So I started off as a team leader and eventually worked my way right the way up through to nearly the top of the organization as far as you can pretty much get as a civilian and finished up in a senior leadership role. 20 years in total, lots of different roles, lots of different operational roles, doing a lot of jobs that police officers used to do that are now done by civilians. But actually out of those 20 years, 15 of those were in leadership. So absolutely love.

Speaker 1:

that that's amazing. Take us through the process of your mindset as you encounter certain biases as a woman going through the ranks of becoming an exceptional leader. What was some of those biases that you had to deal with and how did you overcome it?

Speaker 2:

I think the challenge for me is I don't know that I can always pinpoint what the bias was. So I think sometimes it was female, I think sometimes it was the fact that I was young, and I think sometimes it was the fact that I was young and I think sometimes it was the fact that I was a civilian and not a police officer and I was managing police officers. There weren't. I think I was one of the first civilian staff that had a responsibility for police officers. Up until then, police officers managed police officers and it was very separate. So I think the biases were sometimes quite hard to pinpoint. I couldn't work out what is your issue here? Is it because I'm young, or is it because I'm not a police officer? And some sometimes I think it was probably all three.

Speaker 2:

There were certainly some departments that I worked in where it was really difficult to pin down, but I think in the early days, in a team leader role, it was mostly, you know, she's young or she's not been in that long, she's not got that much experience. And then I think into the senior management roles. The biases are always interesting. You sit in an office and I remember one occasion somebody came in and asked me to make the teas and coffees for a meeting that was happening and I actually outranked that person. You know I was a more senior person and he's walked in and said could you there's eight of us for a meeting, can you please make seven teas and a coffee? And I said we all make our own teas and coffees here. The cups are there.

Speaker 2:

You help yourself right you know, and I think on the whole it was a challenge. But I think because it was difficult, not always knowing what that bias was, to be able to call it out and challenge it specifically, so quite often it would be around challenging the behavior and whether or not that behavior was appropriate and really just having to hold my ground, my skin is thicker than an elephant, I'm sure of it, because you just got used to brushing it off, I think, also knowing what battles to pick. Sometimes you just let things go for the bigger picture and sometimes you had to dig your heels in and have those conversations, and none of them are ever easy, no matter how many of those.

Speaker 1:

right, yeah, yeah, there was some challenging times in there, for sure one of the things that I like to talk about is like courage, right, and you were describing your process of how you got to where you got, but take us a layer deeper, right, when certain limiting beliefs, certain fears as a woman in this new environment, we all embark on these type of thought processes. What was it for you you, though that propelled you forward? How did you specifically overcome your internal fears, the inner critic, to continue to move forward? What was that, and what did it look like?

Speaker 2:

I think, something that people will probably tell you about me. It's like and I think, whilst that can be a challenge, sometimes, I think in situations like that it becomes a strength because I felt really determined to make it work. I was very, I think, headstrong to a point of I am one of those people. If you tell me I can't do it, you can then watch me do it, because you can guarantee I'm gonna make sure that happens. So I think there were probably a number of times where I was hearing people saying she's not experienced enough, she's not ready, she's not qualified or she's not worked in this department before, and I'd be like, okay, I'm gonna learn and you can watch me and I'm gonna make it happen. I think that's what kept me going, that kind of digging, and I am going to make this work. I am going to prove to you that women can do this job. I am going to prove to you that I am old enough and I am experienced enough and I'm going to make it work.

Speaker 1:

But how did you get that experience? I'm going to prove them wrong. Spirit when did that come from? I'm just trying to get to the core of where did you develop that spirit of hell? No, I'm not stopping, I'm going for this. I'm going to kick some ass and make sure and prove you wrong. How did you develop that spirit?

Speaker 2:

I don't know. There's a part of me that kind of wants to answer and just say I think it's always been there, but I don't. I remember growing growing up. I remember my dad would say things like don't let people tell you what you can or can't do. I remember, in fact, the words that springing to my mind is my dad always is. My dad's saying was the bigger they come, the harder they fall, and it was almost that, I think. So there's two, two girls, me and my sister, and I think it was never a. You can't do that because you're a girl. It was always like that's what you want to do. You put the work in and you go and get it done.

Speaker 2:

I'm very much encouraged around effort rather than achievement. So I notice now that certainly sometimes if things feel effortless for me, then I feel like I haven't put the work in, so I don't deserve the achievement. So there's definitely some beliefs there from early years around if you put the work in, hard work pays off. If you work harder than everybody else, then you will achieve more. So I think there's probably some programming there, from a dad certainly. So I think that's that was probably programmed in from an early age, you know, at 18, leaving school, walking into work in a police station, and I remember members of the public would say to me like why is it like you're a kid? I think I felt quite early on, right from day one, I have to prove myself.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I think it was probably part of the journey throughout, not just in the leadership roles, but I think I was very young when I started and very much felt like I had to prove my reason for being there.

Speaker 1:

I remember. I'm going to share a quick story. I remember when I was about I want to say I was about 11, maybe a little younger, maybe nine or 10. When we grew up, I grew up in the city, san Francisco, california, and every summer the neighborhood had a rec center and they would take us just to different places around California and things like that for the kids that's out of school during the summer. So one summer we went to this pool resort place and we went swimming as a group and I wasn't a good swimmer at all and I challenged myself. It was at the deep end of the pool and all my friends were swimming across and I wanted to challenge myself and do it too. So halfway through the pool, I get tired, I panic, I literally drowned. Literally drowned, unconscious, woke up on the side pumping out water out of my lungs, went to the hospital the whole night unconscious, everything right.

Speaker 1:

So I had this fear of you can't go by the water. You can't go by the water. And I think I share this story because there became a point in my life where I didn't want to sit on the sidelines no more. When the summertime comes, everyone's swimming. I'm on the sideline because I'm afraid of the water, because what happened to me? So guess what I did? I jumped right back in there and I just started swimming and it just went away.

Speaker 1:

And I bring that up because fear try to protect us. It really does in the future sense. So you had this bad experience and almost died. You cannot get in that water again because if you do, that will happen again. That's how the fear was just talking to me, and so is it worth for me missing out with my friends hanging by the pool on the sideline or just get in. Just get in and learn from that experience of what happened to you before, of what happened to you before. And actually I did, because I didn't just jump back into the deep end but I gradually regained my confidence, but I didn't totally avoid the pool. So I just wanted to highlight that because I think, when we talk about professional fears, taking that next step, how do you help your clients approach certain fears that they're dealing with in the workplace?

Speaker 2:

the anticipation, anxiety is very real, and the more you stand on the sidelines, the bigger it gets. The bigger the fear gets, the bigger the overwhelm gets and the harder it is then to take that first step. One of the things I learned from a very early age again probably through encouragement from parents was step in, jump in with two feet and work it out once you're in there, and I think that served me really well in life. There's lots of things that I've done that I think, had I have taken a little bit longer to think about it, probably wouldn't have done it. So I think for me, when the opportunities arise, my programming is say yes and worry about it later.

Speaker 2:

Worry about how you're going to do it later and I think that's certainly something that comes up with clients when they're worrying about things is helping them to identify what the fear is, call out what the fear is, because I think it's okay to encourage people to be okay with talking about what it is that worries them and then look at how we can rationalize that, how we can explore that from different perspectives and how we can reduce the overwhelm and reduce the perceived fear and look at what the actual fear is, what the actual risk is, but also look at what the actual fear is, what the actual risk is, but also look at what the potential benefits are, because outside the comfort zone is the fear zone, but the other side of the fear zone is the growth and learning zone.

Speaker 2:

If we can focus on what the benefits are when we take that step, when we move forward, and if we can move forward with intention and with purpose, knowing that there will be a period of discomfort but on the other side of that is that period of growth, it's much easier Eyes on the prize kind of mentality of, ok, this isn't going to be easy, this isn't going to be comfortable, and there's probably a lot of fear mixed in there, but there's probably also some excitement in there too. So I often ask the question what excites you about it? What excites you about what's on the other side of that fear and what could the possibilities be once you cross through that fear zone?

Speaker 1:

and I think that often then helps with that reframe yeah, and I also work with clients of putting their values in the front of it, because when fear is present, it's a a distraction, in my opinion, and then it distracts us away from what's important to us, which are values in that moment. So you take, for example, public speaking. Right, that's one space where people have a lot of fear in public speaking. With public speaking, they have an important message that they may need to provide and give, and there's a lot of integrity that goes behind the message that they want to convey to the public.

Speaker 1:

But the fear is present and because they're worried about oh my goodness, I got to speak, what are people going to think, the inner critic, all of that really becomes highly present and that's where we're distracted away from the value of, just say, integrity, as I described. The importance of this message is so critical. The importance of this message is so critical, but in certain moments we're afraid because the fear is much larger than the value of integrity in that moment. Yeah, but then somehow, someway, we get the courage, we start sharing that message and as we're sharing that message, the value of integrity rises, the fear diminishes and, as you speak, no fear is present, and I wanted to paint that visual for people, because I just think it's very important, like how we suppress our values in moments of fear.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

What are your thoughts about that?

Speaker 2:

I think there's a knowledge gap for a lot of people in why that fear is so overwhelming. It's so powerful in that moment. I would love that we taught this in schools because I think if we taught our young people the fight, flight and freeze response and we taught people that our brains are hardwired to keep us safe and that includes from fear of judgment and fear of failure and they understand that in the moment their brain is doing exactly what it is there to do. But actually as humans we are able to override that and work through it, and that's okay.

Speaker 2:

I think there is a knowledge gap there that people feel that sense. They don't necessarily understand what that means. They want to protect themselves in the moment, they want to avoid that discomfort in the moment, and so the values then become secondary to that. After that, when those feelings, those emotions, that adrenaline response has all settled down, they then have that, they realize what they're missing out on, and then there's another little raft of emotions that comes through. So I think being really clear on what your values are and that purpose and intent of why are you doing this, why is this important Sometimes that can help rationalize the fear of failure and the fear of judgment. Ok, I may fail and I may be judged, but it's going to be worth it, because this is so much more important to me.

Speaker 1:

Tell us about the typical client you work with and how do you take them from point A to point Z.

Speaker 2:

The people that I work with. Some of them are in leadership roles and some of them run their own businesses. We lead ourselves through our lives. We lead ourselves and our team, and we also lead ourselves through business and the people that we work with in business. So the leadership skills tend to come across throughout, and so what I help people to do is identify what tools they've already got in the toolkit. You are already successful. So what tools have you got in the toolbox that have helped you to get where you are? I think that's really important, because so often we go through life, don't we? And we elevate and we excel, and we don't always take that time to think about the tools that we've collected along the way, and some of them lay dormant for a while too. So I think understanding what tools you've got in the toolbox is really important Understanding what has got you here. So what is it? You've used your characteristics, your attributes, not just your technical skills, but your behavior skills as well. What do you really excel at? What has helped you to get to this level?

Speaker 2:

One of the key things speaking about values that comes up a lot with clients is getting really clear on their values and then their vision of where they want to go next, because a lot of the people that I speak to, as I said, they're already really successful. So they, because they're ambitious people, because they're driven, because they're determined, they've got their eyes on what's next, but also, at the same time, they've worked really hard to get to where they've got to. So there's that element of I see this over here and I really want it, but I've also worked really hard to get life to a really good place. And do I want to risk undoing all of that to chase what's next? So I think a lot of the work that I do is talking about their values, talking about the purpose, talking about intention. So just because you can doesn't mean that you have to. So, yes, you could go for that. Is that what you really want? Yes, you could go and do that, but is that what you really want? And sometimes it's weighing all of those things up.

Speaker 2:

So once we've worked all of that bit out, we then go through a framework of what's the plan? How do you make it happen? Where are you now? Where do you want to get to? How do you get across and make that work? What is your intention? What do you need from a performance perspective? How are you motivated, how are you disciplined, how are you consistent? What beliefs do you need to have? What mindset do you need to have to make all of that work? And then, what structure do you need in place to make all of that work? And then we build all of that in together to help them to get to that next level, whatever that looks like for them.

Speaker 1:

Okay, that's cool. I like that. I'm listening to you describe how people need to discover what it is that they really want. Is there specific tools that you use to help a person transition to that self-discovery process, or is it just a list of questions that you go through? What does that aspect look like?

Speaker 2:

A couple of things that I use. So the PIPS framework plan intention, identity, performance and structure those are the five key areas that I work through with them and that can be a very different questions for different clients, but the framework is still the same the plan to get there. The intention, the identity for anyone that's read James Clear, we know the identity is really important and actually for a lot of people, that next level they recognize who do I need to be to get to that next level? Is that who I want to be at that next level? And sometimes that can be the deciding factor. Performance they're already successful people, so what goes into that for them to perform well at that next step? The other tool that I use is what I call the KSA bridge.

Speaker 2:

So quite often there's a gap. The majority of the time there's a gap between where people are now and where they want to be, and in that gap is mostly a knowledge gap, a skills gap or an action gap. So either you don't know what you need to know or you don't have the skills, technical or behavior to bridge that gap, or you haven't taken action. Sometimes they've taken action but it's not been consistent enough. So the questions that I will ask is helping them to identify you're here, you want to get to here. What's the bridge? Is it a knowledge, is it skills or is it action? And that can then help them to work out what's the next step. What do I need to do to bridge that gap? That's come about through years of working with different clients? But I'm NLP master practitioner, cbt trained, positive psychology. So all of the tools in the toolbox, dependent on what the client needs.

Speaker 1:

That's great. Pick one and share with us.

Speaker 2:

Do you mean my personal successes or client successes?

Speaker 1:

Client successes that you've worked with through the strategy of what you was just sharing.

Speaker 2:

Because the successes are important to them. Right there's the big picture of what does success look like for the majority and what does success look like for them? I think, probably because I identify with them a little bit. Their stories resonate with me. But it's working parents who are able to be successful in their career and also be present for their family, and I think we hear a lot that you can't have both, like you have to pick. Are you present at home, or do you have a successful career, or do you have a successful business? So I think for me, it's been those people where they've been able to create that plan to achieve what they want to achieve. They've had a structure in place which means the things that are most important to them in life are protected and respected and preserved whilst they pursue what's important to them. I think those are the success stories, because I think you can be a present parent or a present partner and be successful and have your own dreams and aspirations. I think you can do both. That's great, those ones that stand out.

Speaker 1:

So why coaching? What made you transition into this field of work?

Speaker 2:

I did some mentoring because of the leadership roles that I was in, because I was a female senior leader and because I was one of the first ones that was managing police officers, I was asked to mentor other people coming up through the organisation and I loved mentoring and then later on I was given the opportunity to be trained as a self-development trainer for women in the force, and then coaching became a part of that as well.

Speaker 2:

So my role was made redundant back in 2017, wasn't expected, but it gave me the opportunity to think okay, what are all the best bits about all of the things that I've done over the years? And leadership for me was always about the seeing potential with people in your team and being able to give them those opportunities and develop them. It was never about the decision making or the power or the responsibility. It was always about the people. So took all of the best bits and created the business. So coaching for me, what I like about it is that it empowers. You're not leading people through it. I like the fact that with coaching, it's about them choosing what's best.

Speaker 1:

The discovery process.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

Helping. Yeah, I'm the same. I I identify exactly with what you're saying, because helping someone self-discover and that light bulb just start bright, just start shining going thing, I just feel so warm inside. I've been able to help someone self-discover what they already knew and a lot of times it's a blind spot for them and they're just walking through life carrying this blind spot and then, as we ask these empowering questions and we take them through the sequence of questioning, the light bulb just comes on. It's just an amazing feeling for me, specifically as a coach.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's a really hard and I love that you said that, because it's such a hard thing to try and describe to somebody who's not sat in the chair and held space or ask those questions. And I think the other side of it is we were busy, everybody's busy, especially people who want more of their busy people, and people don't often have that time, or they don't make that time, to sit and give themselves that space.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

So I always say to people when we have the consultation call or talking about coaching, that I'm your thinking partner. I don't have all of the answers. We believe, as coaches, that you have all of the answers, which I think is what you were saying too. You have all of the answers, which I think is what you were saying too. You have all of the answers. My role as your thinking partner is to ask you different questions, for you to think about things differently, for you to walk around things.

Speaker 2:

See, things from a different perspective, and then you might see some options that you have not seen before. That is my role is shining the light on things that you haven't yet seen, but they're already there, and so whenever people say, what would you do, it's not about me, it's not about what I would do. It's about what you want to do, what you choose to do. I think when you see that shift start to happen yeah that's a powerful moment.

Speaker 1:

And then also, leaders want that confidentiality space where they can be vulnerable and validated, because in that space, and particularly when you're at the executive role, you're not getting feedback from your superior, they're not giving you annual appraisals. You're already expected to take us to that next space. So where do you have those conversations at? Who are you indulged with? To get validated, to get your motivation moving forward, feeling inspired? We don't, execs don't, and so they just carried it all in their head with us as coaches. We give them the space to be validated, recognized, acknowledged, to be vulnerable, to have confidentiality all of those things.

Speaker 2:

And people feel reborn when they have that space it's a safe space to bounce things around as well, because in my opinion, I think the best leaders are those that have that flexibility and they're able to adapt. But if we don't give people that space to think about how they can flex and adapt different approaches, they're always going to do the same thing and if they always do the same thing, we've always got the same outcome, and I think that's dangerous as a leader to go through as a leader, responding to things in the same way with different people. People need something different. As a leader, you need to respond differently to different people in different situations. You need that space to be able to bounce around. Okay, what do I do? What do I do with this person? What do I do with this situation? How do I pre-brief and debrief what I'm dealing with and how I'm dealing with it, to be able to learn from that and be able to evolve from that? It's so important.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's funny because when you were saying that I was thinking, one of my clients they said hey, mo, I wanted to ask you how do you think I should move forward with this situation? And then I always say I don't know how do you think I should move forward with this situation. And then I always say I don't know how do you think you should move forward in this situation.

Speaker 2:

So it's like they kind of want that, that that validated response, to be. Can you ask me this question, or the permission to not know? Sometimes it's that permission to say I don't know and then say, okay, if you did know, what might that? Permission to say I don't know and then say, okay, if you did know, what might that look like? And then all of a sudden it's I don't know but and then they give you the answer exactly but you did know.

Speaker 2:

You just needed that permission to be okay with maybe not being confident in what you know or being able to bounce it around a little bit.

Speaker 1:

How can my listeners find you?

Speaker 2:

So everything is under my name, so you can find me on LinkedIn, Instagram and the website is zoethompsonuk. So nice and easy to find, easy to reach out to.

Speaker 1:

I'm always open to meeting new people. Any final thoughts you would like to leave before we sign off?

Speaker 2:

I think just what's come out of the conversation for me is take the step, take action and give yourself space to bounce it around and work it through once you're in it, but don't do that from the sidelines.

Speaker 1:

There it is everyone. Miss Loie Thompson, thank you very much.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for joining me in this episode of let's Think About it. Your time and attention are greatly appreciated. If you found value in today's discussion, I encourage you to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. Remember, the journey of self-improvement is ongoing and I'm here to support you every step of the way. Connect with me on social media for updates and insights. You can find me on Instagram and Facebook, at Coach Mo, coaching or LinkedIn, at Maurice Mabry, or visit my website at mauricemabrycom for exclusive content. Until next time, keep reflecting, keep growing and, most importantly, keep believing in yourself. Remember, the most effective way to do it is to do it Together. We're making incredible strides toward a better and more empowered you, so thank you, and I'll see you in our next episode.